What would be the most appropriate solution that saves the most life? These lives include the unborn. Where is the compromise that saves the most life, if we didn’t worry about the strict morality of anything what solution saves the most people. What is that? Do you know? Are there statistics that if the most lives saved including the unborn is...what? How can we apply a law that saves the most life, regardless of morality, but focus on the most life saved?
Absolutely not. The unborn cannot get born without using the body of another human being. And they simply don’t get to do that without consent. Read Judith Jarvis Thompson’s 50 year old article on the matter: https://media.lanecc.edu/users/borrowdalej/phl205_s17/violinist.html
I read your article and I LOVE it. It is well reasoned and dare I say fun to consider the violinist attached to your body involuntarily...I love the whimsical example. And in a weird way it could apply to a man...love it. So, I do have some ideas that explain my position on abortion but they include religion. Religion is absurd, or so it seems, but the problem with religion is that it actually happened because people died for the cause of it. You can look at the observations of the saints and apostles and Jesus himself or godself whatever his dual nature was...getting the absurdity? but the problem was it was all real and people had to create the spin to explain the real absurdity of it. So if you are ok to work the logic in the absurd...which is definitely a leap of faith, I’m game to explain my position on abortion to you because it’s not traditional in a secular sense but highly traditional in a religious one. Are you game? I’m hoping you are as I sense a good aura from you. It’s warm. It’s real...even whimsical like the essay you generously shared. I wish I had read it sooner in my life.
Agreed...it’s a leap of faith in some respects and when I make a leap of faith it has taken forever to write that on my soul...I understand. Mary, known as the mother of God in the Bible told her absurdity to others after Jesus had been crucified. No one ever thought she’d really have a story until they all observed that shockingly Jesus rose from the dead as he said he would in three days. So if you are familiar with the Bible please be aware that Mary’s story was told in retrospect of truly shocking and absurd events in the life of Jesus. People became obsessed and rightly so that the strange man running around saying he was the son of God actually survived a crucifixion after everyone thought that he was dead and buried. The fact they saw him walking and eating and still telling people he was God with huge scars on his hands and body quite literally freaked people out even if they never knew him. I mean it’s absurd, right? Ok, so enough of the male perspective, let’s focus on Mary’s story that she told in light of all this shocking stuff. It’s good to understand how these things might present themself in a real timeline fashion without the armchair quarterbacking of the gospels. So Mary told her story. She was a devout Jew, so devout she was saving herself for the messiah. Mary literally was a virgin like all other virgins at the time devoutly believing God would work though her to bring forth the messiah. It was a wholly special devotion of select women who loved God. I am almost reversely devout to Mary herself. I will consecrate myself to Jesus through Mary this Saturday on the feast of her Immaculate Heart. Side note...these are powerful words to label a woman, it is above respectful of a woman. So Mary is 13 or so and being a virgin for God like some other virgins she knows and an angel appears to her and tells her she will bear a son and she will name him Jesus. Ok Mary thinks this is absurd but she is so devout she is curious. How can this be I have had no relations with a man? The Holy Spirit will overshadow you and you will conceive and bear a son. Do not be afraid you have found great favor with God and your son will be known as Emmanuel. Ok, so Mary gets it kinda. Is her intended desire to carry the Messiah coming to fruition? Be it done to me according to Gods will and the Angel left her. Was I crazy or did God just say I will bear a son through no relations with a man. This is kind of like the sleeping woman getting hooked up to the violinist. What just happened? But I mean isn’t this what I’ve wanted? Be it done to me according to Gods will, consent. Which is outside the norm and above what any woman would be expected to do. Who consents to a weird experience of an angel talking crazy to basically be raped by the Holy Spirit although Salvador Dali, the great surrealist thought the Holy Spirit entered Mary through her ear and it was not rape, but still. I mean Mary told this story with a straight face while her son had survived a crucifixion. It’s all absurd, so take the leap of faith with me because in the absurdity of it all Mary might as well had been raped. It fits all classic descriptions if it, but let’s agree with Dali that the spirit went through her ear. Safer. Mary told her story and while this event occurred Mary had no proof of it yet. The Angel also told her her cousin Elizabeth would bear a child in her barren old age and Mary was extremely curious about this and decided to journey on her own in a world much more dangerous than ours by herself on foot to visit Elizabeth. In a six month time period she visited Elizabeth and was visibly pregnant and Elizabeth said blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb...so the famous lines go. Mary then recites the greatest triumph of any women known, the Magnificat. Check it out, but she basically brags about what God has done to her. I got the Messiah! Elizabeth is so proud of her. Yes you did. My child lept in my womb at the sound of your voice. My soul doth magnify the lord. It’s kinda funny to me because it’s all absurd but these women are rejoicing on what the face of it looks like an unplanned pregnancy in the least or at most a rape. If these two hadn’t been divinely inspired or warned maybe it would have felt much different to them and all their relatives. So Mary returned to Nazareth to a guy that wanted to be married to her or was betrothed to her, meaning if Mary wanted she could abandon her desire to be a virgin and marry Joseph, but let’s just betroth them so she can think about it. But she returns to Nazareth now visibly pregnant. She tells Joseph the absurd story with a straight face and Joseph is scared, not because the law says Mary would have to be stoned for violating her betrothal but because she straight faced and devout desire to be a virgin was real to him and even though absurd he believed her. What did this mean to him as a part of this? What am I getting mixed into, I’m certainly not worthy of any of it and it too weird to fathom so I will divorce her quietly as to not cause her any embarrassment or inadvertent stonings and leave her quietly, but that night an Angel appeared to him and told him to take Mary as his wife and help her raise the son and name him Jesus and Joseph was a righteous man and felt God was with them. So, Mary goes on the bear the child and the rest is history, but during the next three months both her and Joseph know this child is something beyond special. Contemplate in your heart the thought of all these absurdities at what types of anxiety fear and wonder raced through the partnership of Mary and Joseph, yes they got married while Mary was visibly pregnant in a public wedding and people accepted it as they were both highly respected people even if they didn’t understand. But if we time warped it to todays world this had to be a shot gun wedding...so sweet bless their hearts. So glad we can work it out for them. When actually Mary was raped by the spirit and yes it was in some way consensual even though it was absurd to even agree to an absurdity such as this crazy devout woman. So, when I see women today in similar situations as the absurd story of Mary, I think of Mary and her almost blind obedience and joyful bragging ignorance and it hits me that it was not just nine months Mary held this origin of her child in her heart but over 30 years in which a whole lot of boring everyday things happened and we really know nothing but the birth story and the time Jesus was lost for three days kinda like the days Jesus was buried until he survived the crucifixion. I think of Joseph who felt so unworthy and almost obsessed that Mary’s body was so sacred that he abstained from ever consummating the marriage he was so in awe. And I contemplate what would have gone through both their heads for 30 years and the absurd courage witnessed in this holy family is ever so inspiring. That I think of women today and all the to a lesser extent absurd situations that can occur in giving birth, I realize that Mary was the perfect example of this potential adversity. She choose if not begged herself to be a virgin and never had sex but did birth a son and name him Jesus. I get what you are saying that in some of the wildest situations women need to retain their natural born agency over their unborn child for all the reasons in your essay but that in reality Mary was a virgin her whole life and her blind consent brought forth the Lord. She not only bore a son but her devoutness and blind consent changed the world at a degree that most people will never do. The depth of her devotion set an example for all time and every generation shall call her blessed. Yes, women should have their babies. Yes, women can end the unborn life at a degree above the unborn through even just with their own actions. But that the potential life they bear is as sacred as the fruit of Mary’s womb, Jesus. Mary sanctified the act of giving birth. She gave the glory to God, but to save the most life including the unborn we should follow Mary’s example and while we can’t legislate Mary’s example In order to save the most life one must remaining a virgin until you are married and if you have consensual sex with the aim to bear a child that child must be born due to the consent of both parties and that life consented to is sacred and could potentially change the world in ways as profoundly as Jesus. People can legislate what ever they want as a democratic society that is their agency as a society and conversely woman should retain agency only over an unborn child which for valid reasons falls outside of her control and these instances should remain rare as life is sacred like the life of Jesus in Mary. Who was Mary that our Lord choose her to be a slave to her dominion. Besides our trust issues with God, how did God deem Mary trustworthy enough to be a slave to her dominion. And the contemplation continues so I end this with a prayer from my consecration to Jesus through Mary.
O Jesus Living in Mary
O Jesus living in Mary,
Come and live in Thy servants, In the spirit of Thy holiness,
Eddie - Our country was founded on religious liberty. Federal and State governments are PROHIBITED from promoting religion, PROHIBITED from regulating beliefs and PROHIBITED from making laws based on one religion that apply to all citizens.
That means that you can believe everything you wrote and it’s 100% irrelevant to your neighbor’s or friend’s or sister’s reproductive health. No doctor or patient must believe what you believe and the law cannot force them to behave as if they do. Your partner can choose to go to her death during pregnancy (usually meaning that the fetus dies, too) by refusing medical care but the doctor must tell her the truth about her condition and their ability to help her. Then SHE can recite whatever prayers she wishes and consult whatever clergy she’d like and consent only to interventions which comport with her beliefs.
Why is t that good enough for the zealots? Why do today’s religious institutions have to be the kind of authoritarians that people like the Pilgrims fled at great peril?
This is simply horribly wrong and is a perfect example of how we still live with Middle Ages ideology. It's time we grew up.
What would be the most appropriate solution that saves the most life? These lives include the unborn. Where is the compromise that saves the most life, if we didn’t worry about the strict morality of anything what solution saves the most people. What is that? Do you know? Are there statistics that if the most lives saved including the unborn is...what? How can we apply a law that saves the most life, regardless of morality, but focus on the most life saved?
Absolutely not. The unborn cannot get born without using the body of another human being. And they simply don’t get to do that without consent. Read Judith Jarvis Thompson’s 50 year old article on the matter: https://media.lanecc.edu/users/borrowdalej/phl205_s17/violinist.html
I read your article and I LOVE it. It is well reasoned and dare I say fun to consider the violinist attached to your body involuntarily...I love the whimsical example. And in a weird way it could apply to a man...love it. So, I do have some ideas that explain my position on abortion but they include religion. Religion is absurd, or so it seems, but the problem with religion is that it actually happened because people died for the cause of it. You can look at the observations of the saints and apostles and Jesus himself or godself whatever his dual nature was...getting the absurdity? but the problem was it was all real and people had to create the spin to explain the real absurdity of it. So if you are ok to work the logic in the absurd...which is definitely a leap of faith, I’m game to explain my position on abortion to you because it’s not traditional in a secular sense but highly traditional in a religious one. Are you game? I’m hoping you are as I sense a good aura from you. It’s warm. It’s real...even whimsical like the essay you generously shared. I wish I had read it sooner in my life.
I can’t promise that I’ll agree. But I can promise that I’ll read what you have to say.
Agreed...it’s a leap of faith in some respects and when I make a leap of faith it has taken forever to write that on my soul...I understand. Mary, known as the mother of God in the Bible told her absurdity to others after Jesus had been crucified. No one ever thought she’d really have a story until they all observed that shockingly Jesus rose from the dead as he said he would in three days. So if you are familiar with the Bible please be aware that Mary’s story was told in retrospect of truly shocking and absurd events in the life of Jesus. People became obsessed and rightly so that the strange man running around saying he was the son of God actually survived a crucifixion after everyone thought that he was dead and buried. The fact they saw him walking and eating and still telling people he was God with huge scars on his hands and body quite literally freaked people out even if they never knew him. I mean it’s absurd, right? Ok, so enough of the male perspective, let’s focus on Mary’s story that she told in light of all this shocking stuff. It’s good to understand how these things might present themself in a real timeline fashion without the armchair quarterbacking of the gospels. So Mary told her story. She was a devout Jew, so devout she was saving herself for the messiah. Mary literally was a virgin like all other virgins at the time devoutly believing God would work though her to bring forth the messiah. It was a wholly special devotion of select women who loved God. I am almost reversely devout to Mary herself. I will consecrate myself to Jesus through Mary this Saturday on the feast of her Immaculate Heart. Side note...these are powerful words to label a woman, it is above respectful of a woman. So Mary is 13 or so and being a virgin for God like some other virgins she knows and an angel appears to her and tells her she will bear a son and she will name him Jesus. Ok Mary thinks this is absurd but she is so devout she is curious. How can this be I have had no relations with a man? The Holy Spirit will overshadow you and you will conceive and bear a son. Do not be afraid you have found great favor with God and your son will be known as Emmanuel. Ok, so Mary gets it kinda. Is her intended desire to carry the Messiah coming to fruition? Be it done to me according to Gods will and the Angel left her. Was I crazy or did God just say I will bear a son through no relations with a man. This is kind of like the sleeping woman getting hooked up to the violinist. What just happened? But I mean isn’t this what I’ve wanted? Be it done to me according to Gods will, consent. Which is outside the norm and above what any woman would be expected to do. Who consents to a weird experience of an angel talking crazy to basically be raped by the Holy Spirit although Salvador Dali, the great surrealist thought the Holy Spirit entered Mary through her ear and it was not rape, but still. I mean Mary told this story with a straight face while her son had survived a crucifixion. It’s all absurd, so take the leap of faith with me because in the absurdity of it all Mary might as well had been raped. It fits all classic descriptions if it, but let’s agree with Dali that the spirit went through her ear. Safer. Mary told her story and while this event occurred Mary had no proof of it yet. The Angel also told her her cousin Elizabeth would bear a child in her barren old age and Mary was extremely curious about this and decided to journey on her own in a world much more dangerous than ours by herself on foot to visit Elizabeth. In a six month time period she visited Elizabeth and was visibly pregnant and Elizabeth said blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb...so the famous lines go. Mary then recites the greatest triumph of any women known, the Magnificat. Check it out, but she basically brags about what God has done to her. I got the Messiah! Elizabeth is so proud of her. Yes you did. My child lept in my womb at the sound of your voice. My soul doth magnify the lord. It’s kinda funny to me because it’s all absurd but these women are rejoicing on what the face of it looks like an unplanned pregnancy in the least or at most a rape. If these two hadn’t been divinely inspired or warned maybe it would have felt much different to them and all their relatives. So Mary returned to Nazareth to a guy that wanted to be married to her or was betrothed to her, meaning if Mary wanted she could abandon her desire to be a virgin and marry Joseph, but let’s just betroth them so she can think about it. But she returns to Nazareth now visibly pregnant. She tells Joseph the absurd story with a straight face and Joseph is scared, not because the law says Mary would have to be stoned for violating her betrothal but because she straight faced and devout desire to be a virgin was real to him and even though absurd he believed her. What did this mean to him as a part of this? What am I getting mixed into, I’m certainly not worthy of any of it and it too weird to fathom so I will divorce her quietly as to not cause her any embarrassment or inadvertent stonings and leave her quietly, but that night an Angel appeared to him and told him to take Mary as his wife and help her raise the son and name him Jesus and Joseph was a righteous man and felt God was with them. So, Mary goes on the bear the child and the rest is history, but during the next three months both her and Joseph know this child is something beyond special. Contemplate in your heart the thought of all these absurdities at what types of anxiety fear and wonder raced through the partnership of Mary and Joseph, yes they got married while Mary was visibly pregnant in a public wedding and people accepted it as they were both highly respected people even if they didn’t understand. But if we time warped it to todays world this had to be a shot gun wedding...so sweet bless their hearts. So glad we can work it out for them. When actually Mary was raped by the spirit and yes it was in some way consensual even though it was absurd to even agree to an absurdity such as this crazy devout woman. So, when I see women today in similar situations as the absurd story of Mary, I think of Mary and her almost blind obedience and joyful bragging ignorance and it hits me that it was not just nine months Mary held this origin of her child in her heart but over 30 years in which a whole lot of boring everyday things happened and we really know nothing but the birth story and the time Jesus was lost for three days kinda like the days Jesus was buried until he survived the crucifixion. I think of Joseph who felt so unworthy and almost obsessed that Mary’s body was so sacred that he abstained from ever consummating the marriage he was so in awe. And I contemplate what would have gone through both their heads for 30 years and the absurd courage witnessed in this holy family is ever so inspiring. That I think of women today and all the to a lesser extent absurd situations that can occur in giving birth, I realize that Mary was the perfect example of this potential adversity. She choose if not begged herself to be a virgin and never had sex but did birth a son and name him Jesus. I get what you are saying that in some of the wildest situations women need to retain their natural born agency over their unborn child for all the reasons in your essay but that in reality Mary was a virgin her whole life and her blind consent brought forth the Lord. She not only bore a son but her devoutness and blind consent changed the world at a degree that most people will never do. The depth of her devotion set an example for all time and every generation shall call her blessed. Yes, women should have their babies. Yes, women can end the unborn life at a degree above the unborn through even just with their own actions. But that the potential life they bear is as sacred as the fruit of Mary’s womb, Jesus. Mary sanctified the act of giving birth. She gave the glory to God, but to save the most life including the unborn we should follow Mary’s example and while we can’t legislate Mary’s example In order to save the most life one must remaining a virgin until you are married and if you have consensual sex with the aim to bear a child that child must be born due to the consent of both parties and that life consented to is sacred and could potentially change the world in ways as profoundly as Jesus. People can legislate what ever they want as a democratic society that is their agency as a society and conversely woman should retain agency only over an unborn child which for valid reasons falls outside of her control and these instances should remain rare as life is sacred like the life of Jesus in Mary. Who was Mary that our Lord choose her to be a slave to her dominion. Besides our trust issues with God, how did God deem Mary trustworthy enough to be a slave to her dominion. And the contemplation continues so I end this with a prayer from my consecration to Jesus through Mary.
O Jesus Living in Mary
O Jesus living in Mary,
Come and live in Thy servants, In the spirit of Thy holiness,
In the fullness of Thy might,
In the truth of Thy virtues,
In the perfection of Thy ways,
In the communion of Thy mysteries;
Subdue every hostile power
In Thy spirit, for the glory of the Father. Amen.
Eddie - Our country was founded on religious liberty. Federal and State governments are PROHIBITED from promoting religion, PROHIBITED from regulating beliefs and PROHIBITED from making laws based on one religion that apply to all citizens.
That means that you can believe everything you wrote and it’s 100% irrelevant to your neighbor’s or friend’s or sister’s reproductive health. No doctor or patient must believe what you believe and the law cannot force them to behave as if they do. Your partner can choose to go to her death during pregnancy (usually meaning that the fetus dies, too) by refusing medical care but the doctor must tell her the truth about her condition and their ability to help her. Then SHE can recite whatever prayers she wishes and consult whatever clergy she’d like and consent only to interventions which comport with her beliefs.
Why is t that good enough for the zealots? Why do today’s religious institutions have to be the kind of authoritarians that people like the Pilgrims fled at great peril?